[00:00:00] Stacey Richter: Episode 507. 4 Core Concepts to Buy or Deliver the Highest Value Healthcare. A Review.
Today I am speaking with Cynthia Fisher, Mark Newman, Justin Leader, Elizabeth Mitchell, Dr. Sam Flanders, Shane Cerone, Jerry DiMaso, Ivana Krajcinovic, Ryan Jacobs, Adam Stavisky, Ryan Wells. Dr. Mick Connors, Dr. Siva, and Dr. Kenny Cole.
[00:00:43] Stacey Richter: Look, we wonks, meaning you and me, you're listening to this, so I am on to you. But we wonks in the Relentless Tribe, we move like lightning on Relentless Health Value. We tend to cover lots of ground pretty fast. So sometimes I like to, with great intention, sum up what's been said. Really lock into the big revelations, the big points made the through lines.
I like to do this so that points stick in my mind and I remember them and can build on them later. I am thinking you like this too, because actually our through line shows in the past have been pretty popular.
But this today is not your average through line show. I am trying something new and actually playing clips of earlier episodes so that you can recall what a guest may have said exactly and specifically, and also really see the ways that episodes may interlock.
Four Core Concepts
[00:01:37] Stacey Richter: So to that end, let me just get to it and tell you the 4 core concepts to buy or deliver the highest value healthcare that we will cover today.
Core Concept 1, buy healthcare. And by the way, health insurance is not healthcare. Jonathan Baran talks about that, and then Cynthia Fisher, Mark Newman, and Justin Leader cover the why, which is billions of dollars.
Then we get into Core Concept 2, which is when buying said healthcare, avoid the myth of less expensive healthcare. What is the myth of less expensive healthcare? Well, there's a lot of them actually. One myth is that low price means low quality. Wrong. Most of the time there is actually no correlation between price and quality, but sometimes less expensive is higher quality.
Also, low quality can be the most expensive care irrespective of the cost. Also, the same exact healthcare service or product can cost wildly different prices. Just keep that in mind.
You'll hear Elizabeth Mitchell, Dr. Sam Flanders, Shane Cerone, Jerry DiMaso, Ivana Krajcinovic talk about this. This whole idea of when buying healthcare, avoid the myth of less expensive healthcare.
Core Concept 3. So of course at this point, direct contracting enters the building. Because direct contracting between ultimate buyers of healthcare, meaning plan sponsors like self-insured employers, etc, and the actual purveyors of healthcare.
Meaning clinicians, is a fairly obvious strategy if we're going to try to get high quality at a fair price. I mean, get the beginning and the end of the road together. When you do that, it not only can spotlight and thereby help eliminate who might be low value, that's sitting in the middle of the road collecting tolls like a toll booth, but it also enables collaboration in other ways, really between the ultimate purchasers and the ultimate deliverers of care.
Because there can be conversations about integration. There can be goals and then work out issues together, right? Collaboration is the next breakthrough innovation. So that's our number three core concept. Consider direct contracting or even just, you know, as a start, go talk to, if you're a self-insured employer or you're a purveyor of care, go just find somebody to have a conversation with. Go talk to each other. Just have a chat.
And I might include pharmacies actually in that mix. It's amazing what can happen actually when those buying care and selling care sit in the same room.
In this Core Concept 3, consider direct contracting, we hear again from Ivana Krajcinovic, but then also from Ryan Jacobs, Adam Stavisky. And then lastly, we have a quote from Ryan Wells.
Core Concept 4 discussed today when direct contracting, or otherwise purchasing healthcare, buy the highest value healthcare. How is that for an aspirational goal? But really what do you want a direct contract for? What do you want your partners to be accountable to deliver.
And what's rolled up into all of that? What is value? What is value, right? We go there, and when I say we, I mean we hear from Dr. Mick Connors, Dr. Siva, otherwise known as Dr. Ahilan Sivaganesan, and then we have Dr. Kenny Cole to bring us home. We finish up really at a very human level for why all of this matters.
So in summary, here's our 4 concepts. When you buy healthcare, buy healthcare. Focus on what you're actually getting for your money and how you are buying it. When you do that, direct contracting starts to make some sense. Just make sure the care that you are buying is truly high value. That's the whole shebang in a nutshell.
[00:06:01] Stacey Richter: One more thing before we kick into this. So yeah, while I was quietly contemplating the vast universe of things gone wrong and right in the healthcare sector, Tom Nash, our producer extraordinaire, wandered in and asked me to try out his new Relentless Health Value Chatbot that he's been working on possibly 18 hours a day, including weekends ever since the incident with Michelle Bernabe and the AI futurist philanthropist, which you can hear all about in Inbetweenisode 46.
All links are in the show notes, by the way, to absolutely everything I have here to for said or will say moving forward as usual.
But anyway, with Tom's Relentless Health Value Chatbot, you can ask a question and have it answered by me and or one or more of the 500 guests we've had on Relentless Health Value so far.
I am not sure if I am more concerned about my impending obsolescence or thrilled to report that this thing actually works. And I will admit I did use it with, I'm going to say a light to medium touch to help out with the episode today.
At the end of the show, if you are interested, I will tell you how to get access to said Relentless Health Value Bot. But right now, let's do this thing that we have set out to do.
As aforementioned, this episode is called "4 Core Concepts to Buy or Deliver the Highest Value Healthcare".
Buy Healthcare Not Insurance
[00:07:30] Stacey Richter: So taking this from the top, first of all, I just said buy the highest value healthcare. Why did I put it that way and not like, buy the best health coverage or insurance or administrative services for members?
Here is Jonathan Baran from episode 483.
[00:07:46] Jonathan Baran: Insurance is for the unknowable risks. When we have known things that we have to purchase, primary care, MRIs, all these simple things, we have to learn to just like buy those based on cost and quality. Buy them like you buy anything else as a business.
I don't want a report that shows me a discount. I wanna actually see how much did my MRIs cost the actual unit price, right? I wanna see my surgeries, I wanna see my drugs. If employers began to think like that, and again, I would argue they're now buying healthcare, they're not buying insurance.
[00:08:21] Stacey Richter: But why does thinking about buying healthcare and not buying insurance matter? Are we splitting hairs? Is this just semantics? Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. It is not.
The most visceral example of the difference between paying for coverage or paying for administrative services or out-of-network shared savings, or whatever you wanna call it, and paying for care is medical spread pricing. Let me remind you of the episode 457 with Cynthia Fisher from Patient Rights Advocate.
Here is Cynthia Fisher.
[00:08:53] Cynthia Fisher: There's a lawsuit right now in California where in the discovery process it's published, that Cigna, for an inpatient stay took three and a half times more from the employer charged them than what they paid the hospital system. Three and a half times more.
And so what we're looking at is a $4 million bill for one patient, inpatient stay, and the provider was paid $877,000. And Cigna pocketed over two and a half million, and the MultiPlan got another $677,000.
Two middle players pocketing over three and a half times more. And the employer had no idea they were overpaying by that amount. And the employer didn't know.
[00:09:35] Stacey Richter: Yikes on that, but okay.
[00:09:36] Cynthia Fisher: I know that's a major yikes at the employer didn't know they way overpaid their insurance carrier and their MultiPlan.
In fact, the employer would assume that there would just be sort of like a small transaction fee, right?
[00:09:49] Stacey Richter: Paying $4 million for $877,000 worth of care. Hmm.
Here's another example to look at when buying benefits or coverage or something other than buying healthcare is different than buying healthcare.
Here is Mark Newman in episode 496.
[00:10:07] Mark Newman: What I mean by a dollar not being a dollar, not being a dollar. The employer is paying rental fees to access that dollar of negotiated rates, transactional fees, PEPMs consulting fees, you name it. And as you stack all those up, that turns into roughly a $1.20 to a $1.30
So they're paying a $1.20 to a $1.30 for their members to access a dollar of healthcare. And on the flip side of it, the provider is collecting maybe 70 to 80 cents.
And that right there, is a trillion and a half dollars a year of US healthcare cost. It just goes out the door and there isn't one boogeyman like it's just the cost of the friction.
[00:10:48] Stacey Richter: Again, highlighting the differences between buying care and buying an administrative layer.
Here's another point to ponder. It's Justin Leader from an episode called "The Mystery of the Weekly Claims Wire".
[00:10:59] Justin Leader: Isn't that an awesome job to have? Like you get paid more for making more mistakes.
[00:11:03] Stacey Richter: So many mysteries in the weekly claims wire, as Justin leader talked about again in episode 433.
And when we say mysteries in the weekly claims wire, we mean mysteries in the dollars disappearing in the administrative layer that never amounted to any care being purchased.
Again, just spotlighting the difference between buying healthcare and buying things that aren't actually healthcare.
Myth of Cheap Care
[00:11:27] Stacey Richter: So now let's wander over to our number 2 core concept why don't we.
Does this focus on buying healthcare and digging into the cost of healthcare and making sure there's no spread pricing? Will we see employers who are buying cheap shoddy care from subpar organizations that are falling prey to what I call the myth of inexpensive care.
Here’s Elizabeth Mitchell from episode 436.
[00:11:56] Elizabeth Mitchell: Self-insured employers. What my members care even more about though, is the quality of care.
They need to know their employees are going to high quality, safe providers and to date, most health plans have not been terribly innovative around quality measurement.
It's not that we don't have the quality measures. I was on the board of the National Quality Forum a decade ago. We've got meaningful quality measures that have been vetted and are valid. They are not being used in contracts and that is very important to employers.
Because frankly, all the evidence shows that you save on the total cost of care. That is such a win because patients are healthier, they don't have unnecessary procedures, and they save money.
Better care costs less, but you have to be really clear about the quality standards you are using to measure better care. That is entirely doable.
[00:12:57] Stacey Richter: And this is really important what Elizabeth Mitchell said just now that. It's a false choice if someone says, do you want the quality care or the less expensive care? Right?
Here's Dr. Sam Flanders talking about this exact same point from the perspective of a Health System Chief Quality and Safety Officer, which is what Dr. Sam Flanders was. This is episode 490.
[00:13:18] Dr. Sam Flanders: And by the way, the my specialty is quality, and those two go together very, very well. If you do things well, it almost always costs less. So it can be done. It's been known since right after World War II thanks to the work of Dr. W Edwards Deming in Japan and later in the US, that improving quality lowers costs. Those two go hand in hand.
And that lowering costs often is less expensive than doing things at higher cost because again, quality and costs are related in, in a positive sort of way.
So there's no question that you can do things well at a lower cost than that list that you're going to put out on your website will show all the listeners that that's completely possible.
[00:13:56] Stacey Richter: Right? It is a counterintuitive reality that the highest quality and safest care is often the least expensive because “doing things well” eliminates waste and errors that drive up costs.
Here’s Shane Cerone from episode 492. Shane Cerone, by the way, is a former health system, CEO.
[00:14:17] Shane Cerone: We think you can have it all, Stacey.
We think that what we envision is a multitiered process or multiphase process. The very first step is for employers to take the reins and set prices to make people like me as when I'm sitting as a CEO in a hospital or health system.
Send me a request for proposal and challenge my team to say, Give us your quality data, give us your prices a percent of Medicare, tell us how good you can be. Because as a CEO of a provider organization, I issue RFPs all the time. I've never responded to one.
And that has to change. If you change that one aspect, things will come into play and no Tier 1 is not just the low price, low quality. In fact, you're gonna find markets, as Sam and I have personally experienced, where low priced hospitals and health systems may be the highest quality providers.
[00:15:03] Stacey Richter: So right takeaway so far. Number 1, focus on buying healthcare. Number 2, focus on buying the kind of healthcare you want for your members at a fair price for said healthcare. Do not fall prey to the myth of inexpensive care, in other words.
To this end, the transparency data that is now available may be extremely relevant, especially if you have a data analyst to help you reconcile what you can see from your side with the transparency data, which is now available.
So speaking of that, here's Jerry DiMaso from Payerset on episode 506, talking about the hospital and carrier transparency files.
[00:15:42] Jerry DiMaso: No. It's crazy what we see in the files. You would be shocked to see the rate disparities from one employer to another. They're huge.
[00:15:50] Stacey Richter:
Different employers slash plan sponsors are paying wildly different prices for the exact same service codes and or different provider organizations are charging wildly different prices for the exact same drugs or services.
Here is Ivana Krajcinovic on just the scale of this.
[00:16:09] Ivana Krajcinovic: We moved her to the independent practice. She has no more out of out pocket expenses. We are now paying something closer to a hundred percent of Medicare. So just again, to make the point on this one patient, her last four infusions at the hospital, we paid over $38,000, where her last four at the practice were $5,000.
[00:16:30] Stacey Richter: And this example, by the way, came right after an example in that episode, episode 501, where Ivana talks about two patients that cost the plan, literally $1 million more because they went to a really expensive place instead of a place that is just as high quality.
This is the exact same drug, by the way, so it's a million dollars more for the exact same product. If those two members had gone down the street, it would've been $1 million less.
Direct Contracting Basics
[00:16:59] Stacey Richter: So here's the question. Are there practices, are there provider organizations, are there clinicians in any given geography that are up for working directly with plan sponsors?
And right now we are tiptoeing into our Core Concept 3, which is about direct contracting. But here's Ivana.
[00:17:15] Ivana Krajcinovic: The part that I will never forget was sitting in the room and talking to them about if we were gonna do this direct contract and you know, you always talk about how you'll pay claims quickly and you'll get rid of some of the bureaucracy and that will all feel good to them.
But we also talked about what percent of Medicare we would pay, And they sort of sheepishly said, well, currently we're renegotiating some of our network contracts because we're only getting between a 100 and 130% of Medicare. So, we would like to suggest 150%.
And it took every ounce of discipline I had not to jump across the table and kiss them for that. Because the alternative in that market in Monterey at the hospital is 800% of Medicare for chemo.
[00:17:58] Stacey Richter: And this matters, this whole thing just in the short term because, right, demand curve. How often have I talked about this in recent shows?
If I am on the supply side of the equation, in other words, I am a health system, a provider organization, and I am getting all of the patients, they're all coming to me, my volume is is what it is. No matter how good a job I do, no matter how high I raise my prices, then why would I as an executive leader, we're talking about C-Suites right now, why would I, as an executive leader who has to answer to my board, how do I rationalize to a board interested in money?
Listen to the episode with Suhas Gondi from a while ago, but why would I rationalize spending money to fundamentally improve care or lower prices?
I'll get the patients anyway. So here's Ivana, once again kind of echoing this theme.
[00:18:47] Ivana Krajcinovic: The hospitals are realizing they're gonna realize they're losing business. The networks also when you have a direct contract, are losing business. Right? You know, they can even clean up their act or they're going to start losing the revenue that they have.
But I think we need more people to do that, and we need to do that in more places. It's not always easy. There is a lot of nuance to it, but like I said, the the payoff in this case, you know, it's in the millions of dollars.
[00:19:11] Stacey Richter: So again, that was Ivana Krajcinovic from episode 501.
And now we are fully right in the middle of Core Concept 3, which is direct contracting, which again has a bunch of advantages.
Even if just because it's one way to buy actual healthcare, and in doing so again, create incentives for provider organizations to level up care, to keep prices in line, otherwise, they will for real loose business.
This is what good incentives look like. This is not the current slate of incentives, however. The current incentives are frankly, pretty perverse, especially if you're looking around to either buy or sell great primary care.
Here is Ryan Jacobs from episode 504, and he's talking about perverse incentives at the health system, again, C-suite or board level.
And I wanna emphasize C-suite or board level. There is a big reason why there is an epidemic of burnout and moral injury amongst clinicians working in the belly of the beasts and a lot of health systems these days. There is a reason why only 45% of health system employees think their bosses will do right by patients. 45% less than half trust their leadership to do right by patients.
Listen to the show with Komal Bajaj. We get into this.
But there's some big reasons why advanced primary care isn't on every street corner getting paid for handsomely despite all the evidence supporting it.
Here's Ryan Jacob's driving home this point and kind of emphasizing direct contracting for advanced primary care is maybe the only way you're gonna get it.
[00:20:39] Ryan Jacobs: I think the intent is there. The people are operating and the executives and the boards of these organizations, they have to have an appropriate return on their overall financial picture. They cannot deploy capital to get a terrible return.
And so this is most organizations, whether it's on the payer side or the system side, and it is, it's an illogical market in a lot of ways because you might do great things and it's not gonna drive greater revenue and volume.
[00:21:03] Stacey Richter: Again, that was episode 504.
But beyond finding advanced primary care for real, you also could consider looking into direct contracting truly as a way to help ensure members are safe out there. Here is Adam Stavisky in episode 503.
[00:21:20] Adam Stavisky: We looked at data data back in old job and physician type by physician type, market by market, and we weren't that interested in parsing the docks between the 67th And the 73rd percentile.
But holy cow, the dots at the bottom 15%, they were just practicing medicine standards of deviation differently than the median in that market, let alone the best practice.
[00:21:44] Stacey Richter: By the way, if you're interested in hearing more about direct contracting, there was two shows. The first one with Dr. Cristin Dickerson and then also with Dr. Stan Schwartz. That was episode 485 and also episode 486.
So certainly go back and listen to those episodes to learn more about direct contracting, as well as that episode 503, that features Dr. Leo Specter, Adam Stavisky, who we just heard from, as well as Ryan Wells.
And in that show we also get into Centers of Excellence Networks, which are in fact a group of direct contracts. If you start thinking about it. That's what a Center of Excellence network is.
Actually, here's Ryan Wells on that topic.
[00:22:20] Ryan Wells: Center of Excellence 1.0 set the precedent. And that's well over a decade old now. Right? That was maybe more of a major health system centered approach. Now I think we're at this Center of Excellence 2.0 version where these aggregators that have gotten critical mass of self-funded employer lives. And they are curating specialist networks have evolved.
And I think it's creating an opportunity to kind of redefine what a modern health plan looks like. You know, essentially there are carve outs, but I think there's, this is just the natural evolution.
[00:22:51] Stacey Richter: Again, that was Ryan Wells from episode 503.
Defining Real Value
[00:22:54] Stacey Richter: So now let's move on into our Core Concept 4. How do you conceive of, how do you buy high value healthcare?
What is high value healthcare? Let's start out here with a quote from Dr. Mick Connor's, episode 495.
[00:23:10] Dr. Mick Connors: What we typically do in healthcare is we try to generate more and more revenue. We work harder, we work faster, we streamline, we make things more efficient because we want more revenue.
Speaker: So if we're just focused on margin and the not the unit cost, then it's pretty easy to create, to monetize a sore throat, a runny nose, a kid with a fever, you know, a kid with a broken arm. We simply just, we don't do an outpatient x-ray anymore. We don't splint them in the office. We send them to the ER. The chronic kid that has asthma shows up, they're outta their inhaler, they're in the ER.
We don't necessarily lower cost. But as in the title of your podcast, it's about value. The value equation is outcomes over cost. So how do we switch our focus to how do we improve outcomes and or lower cost?
You know, I worked at private equity. If we can roll up as many things and we can make them more efficient And we create more margin, are we offering value? So that's where the pivot becomes, okay, the value equation is outcomes over cost, or are we improving outcomes? And or lowering costs, or are we just making more margin?
[00:24:17] Stacey Richter: Bottom line, most big corporatized health systems are focused on growth, which is a pseudonym for driving revenue. And oftentimes if they talk about efficiency improvements, those efficiency improvements are meant to drive additional throughput as they say ie, how do you get more patients through the system?
The faster the doctor can see a patient, and the more patients that any given clinician team can see, the more revenue collected in a fee-for-service world. That is the math that matters.
Again, you can start to see the why with direct contracting, you can start to see the why with plan sponsors trying to figure out how to do buy the care they want to buy for their members. To really hold clinical groups accountable for high value care and for any clinical organization that is out there who's looking to deliver high value care.
Having a buyer who's willing to pay for what they have on offer can be a really, really synergistic positive thing. The show with Dr. Mick Connors is just such a wonderful prequel to episode 505 with Dr. Siva where we go deep on what is value, what it is, how to buy it, how to deliver it.
Here's Dr. Siva.
[00:25:35] Ahilan Sivaganesan, MD: We talk about the value equation all day long.
No value-based care presentation is complete without the value equals outcomes divided by cost equation, right? And yet, to your point, we are getting down into the weeds sometimes to the level of like handwashing rates or readmission rates or ER visit rates and calling that quality. But in my view, we have completely missed the boat on what quality really means and how to measure it.
And I'll give you an example. If my aunt who say lives in Chicago, we think she might need a hip replacement. She's got hip pain. And we're trying to figure out what to do, where to go, where to start. It's not enough to know that, say Northwestern has a surgical site infection rate of X, or they have a readmission rate of Y. I mean, that's the kind of quality metrics that we all sort of hear about.
What do I really wanna know? First of all, I wanna know that if she gets a hip replacement by a given surgeon at a given hospital, what is the probability that a year later she is mobile walking, pain-free, and satisfied with her outcome? That's like what this was really about.
We don't really measure that at scale and make it visible to patients or payers. There's no consumer reports for specialty care where I can go in and say, all right, what matters to my aunt specifically, she cares about not being in the hospital too long. She cares about being able to walk a hundred yards.
What she really cares about is not having to have a second operation, even if it means something more involved upfront. I should be able to dial those things in and then be able to compare hospitals practices and surgeons in a given region on the specific patient report outcomes that matter to her. That's real quality.
And I'll go one step further, which is that. It's not just about how good you are at doing surgery. Because to your point about appropriateness, if she has hip pain, maybe the right pathway for her is to start with PT, then try some injections, then try some yoga, And if none of those things work, then go for surgery.
If she goes to a practice for institution where they're a little too aggressive, for example, in offering surgery. It doesn't really matter to me whether the surgical outcomes are great if she was never supposed to get surgery at that juncture in the first place. And so what that brings up is this idea that you have to measure quality across the entire care journey.
And that means evaluating whether or not a patient is getting the right treatment at the right time by the right person. Which is a very upstream concept to how good at you are at delivering that surgical episode of care.
Whole Person Outcomes
[00:28:14] Stacey Richter: Alright, now let's land this plane. I just wanted to play this clip because much of what we've talked about now is just so theoretical.
I wanted to play this clip from Dr. Kenny Cole which is from episode 473, where he really showcases what Whole Person Care kind of like looks like and why it's different from being myopically focused on quality measures.
Maybe I'll even bring up Goodhart's Law right now, which is once a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
And in this clip with Dr. Kenny Cole, you can see how he avoids Goodhart's Law.
[00:28:49] Dr. Kenny Cole: Somebody who's, if the greatest love of their life is fishing. You've gotta be able to have good sensation to be able to feel that line when a fish bites. To appeal to their intrinsic source of motivation, I want to be able to help them fish for as many years as I possibly can.
But essential to that is going to be the control of their diabetes instead of some arbitrary, our goal is to get your A1C less than seven, which may not mean that much to the patient.
Our goal is be for you to be able to fish for as many years as possible. And to do that, we've gotta prevent the numbness that's gonna come in your fingers and your feet.
And in order to do that, we're gonna have to control your sugar. And what that control of your sugar looks like is gonna be an A1C of seven, and that's gonna be the measure that we're gonna use to make sure we're achieving that goal that matters most to you.
[00:29:37] Stacey Richter: Okay? So buy healthcare. Recognize that buying quality is just as important to cost as buying on cost sometimes, especially if you're at the far end of the spectrum. And the care is frankly unsafe. That is going to be so expensive.
And under this light, direct contracting for healthcare starts to make sense. But if you're gonna direct contract, buy value, buy whole person health for your population. Know what the actual prices are if you're a plan sponsor. And if you're a clinical organization, I mean, obviously you're gonna have to get to the unit cost. Otherwise, it's really, really hard to take on risk or be accountable for risk.
Listen to that show with Dr. Siva episode 505.
Chatbot Beta Access
[00:30:15] Stacey Richter: Okay. Now that it's confirmed that you are in the Relentless Health Value tribe of listeners looking to do right by members and patients, because if you weren't, you'd be long gone by now.
Let me talk about this chat bot, this Relentless Health Value bot that Tom Nash made. We are going to make a beta version available to absolutely anybody who donated any amount at any time to Relentless Health Value, like any amount of any donation at any time in the past.
Why, you may be wondering, are we limiting access to the bot? Well, for one reason, every time the bot is used, we pay a token or something, which is a fraction of a penny, but you can see why we wouldn't want to just chuck it out in the worldwide web.
Being able to ask a question of our show feels like something we would want to restrict to those who are going to use the insight and the information for purposes our team and I are aligned with.
And anyone who donated money to the show has probably the same purpose, I'm going to assume.
So those of you prior Tip Jar users or recurring membership folks, or however else you managed to give us a donation, keep an eye in your inbox for a link. And if you did not donate up until now, well then go donate something as one option. You do you, as far as the amount goes, it's more of a statement of alignment than anything else.
Now I will say this though, if you simply do not have the wherewithal to donate anything at this time, hit up the contact us on the website and ask for access. I'm gonna say, please don't email me directly if you don't mind, mainly because you'll get helped a lot faster if you hit the contact us button on the website.
And lastly, if you produce a Substack or something and you would like to trade access for access, we are super happy to do that too.
So beta version of the Relentless Health Value Chatbot is live. We're trying to figure out a good name for it. If you have suggestions. All ears over here.
Also, spoiler alert, I guess we have two great episodes coming up next week. And the week after that one with Patrick Nelli from Aligned Marketplace, where we will cover how to talk to a CFO about leveling up a health plan. How to talk CFO talk.
And then I talk with Lee Lewis about why CEOs do not move forward with maybe some suggested and pretty obvious improvements, and that is a barnstormer of a show. It came out of a question that we received.
Wrap Up and Thanks
[00:32:43] Stacey Richter: Last but not least, thank you so much for all you do for patients and members. Thank you so much for being here.
My name is Stacey Richter. This podcast is sponsored by Aventria Health Group with an assist today from Payerset.