EP457: It’s a Big Thing: Medical Spread Pricing. So, Let’s Talk About Contract Transparency, With Cynthia Fisher

I’m putting a meme in the show notes. It’s my second meme ever, so I’m clearly on a roll. As you can see, it’s a picture of two kids taking a test; and the one kid is cheating off the other kid. It’s a How to Do Spread Pricing test, and the kid with carrier has his eyes all over the PBM kid’s test.

For a full transcript of this episode, click here.

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Look, this is a thing now, medical spread. And similar to how PBM spreads adds up to millions, billions of dollars, medical spread is not change in the couch cushions. Did you see the lawsuit against Cigna? Cynthia Fisher mentions it in the conversation that follows. Spoiler alert, here’s the numbers: Self-insured employer paid $4 million for a claim.

In this case, there’s a slide on this Cynthia Fisher gave me, by the way, if you want to see all this written out. So, the employer pays $4 million. The provider was paid—drumroll, please—$876,000. I’m pausing so that sinks in: $4 million paid by the employer; $876,000 of that makes it across the trench to the provider.

What happened, you may be wondering, to the $3.2 million in the middle there that the self-insured employer wrote a check to their carrier for? If I’m the employer, I think I would sort of want to know where the $3.2 million went, because … yeah. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to explain how a prudent fiduciary is managing to pay millions of dollars of its plan members’ money for services that actually cost a fraction of that.

And this is just one claim.

But you came here for a show about transparency. Why, you may be wondering, am I talking about medical spread pricing? It’s not a super far leap, so many of you are probably there already; but let me quote Chris Deacon. She wrote, “As these conglomerates expand control over healthcare delivery and administration, radical transparency is our only bulwark. Patients and employers deserve to know exactly what they’re paying for, without hidden fees disguised as care costs.”

I don’t think anyone would say that transparency alone is sufficient to transform healthcare, but it’s definitely a start for sure. So, yeah … transparency.

The reason why lawsuits about overpayments, big ones—and there’s a bunch of them afoot right now, not just that Cigna one—but the reason that these are going down in the first place is because hospital prices and carrier prices are now somewhat available.

And we have some plan sponsors—the ones who are worried about fiduciary duty, at least—these plan sponsors are able to cobble together the math to catch a glimpse of how much money is vanishing. Dollars they and their members are paying for medical claims that never make it to the care team providing the care. And who is shocked? Are you shocked? I’m not shocked.

Let me read a sentence from a carrier contract that Justin Leader sent me the other day. Section 6.3: “Claim administrator’s compensation for its services under the agreement shall include the difference between the net claim payments reimbursed to the claim administrator by the employer and the net amounts paid to providers by the claim administrator.”

Translation: We are allowed to add spread pricing. We are able to arbitrage. We are able to mark up (or whatever you want to call it) by any amount we want, and you, plan sponsor, just signed up to pay for it. So, that happened. Listen to episode 433 with Justin Leader, by the way. The show is called “The Mystery of the Weekly Claims Wire,” otherwise known as the Not Transparent Weekly Claims Wire.

So, look … transparency: We can talk about it in terms of medical prices. We can talk about transparency in terms of contracts. And actually also in terms of quality, but we don’t get into that today.

Bottom line, plan sponsors need enough access to billing data and hospital prices to calculate how much the middle folks are taking in spread, which is, as aforementioned, quite a thing.

For more actual data on the magnitude of spread pricing goings-on, ask Dan Ross. That’s my suggestion. He’s got spreadsheets he can show you of how much plan sponsors are paying and how much providers are charging and how much is going missing in the middle. For even more on this, read the recent Owens & Minor lawsuit that just got filed, which is just a case study in how hard some of these middlemen/carrier entities are working to obscure and hide what they are doing. Because, yeah, sunshine is a great disinfectant, and that’s what transparency is. Sunshine.

Here’s another interesting link from Chris Deacon.

I say all this to say, this is the kind of transparency that Cynthia Fisher and I talk about in the show today: contract transparency, bill charges transparency, and hospital or medical price transparency for plan sponsors.

We do not get into today consumers or patients using price information to shop, just FYI. We also do not get into, really, price convergence, which is what happens when hospital and carrier prices become available in a market and is often brought up on or about conversations about transparency.

Okay, I will say just one thing about price convergence. There was some chatter in anti-transparency press releases from parties mostly that didn’t want to be transparent at all, no way no how. But there was some talk a couple of years ago that if contracted prices became transparent, the healthcare industry would raise their prices to match the highest in the market and the result would be rising healthcare prices and greater total costs.

That turns out, it seems, to be false. There’s a study that shows that the bottom of the market (those with the cheapest prices) do, in fact, raise their prices but not as much as the top of the market lowers theirs. So, there is actually net savings. Read about the Turquoise Health study and an article that Forrest Xiao and team posted that shows this, and it’s the first study of its kind, at least that I have seen.

Okay, so contract transparency, data transparency, that’s what’s on deck to discuss today with Cynthia Fisher, as I have mentioned several times already, who has a long history as an entrepreneur in the healthcare space.

So, Cynthia Fisher gets U.S. healthcare, and she gets being a plan sponsor and a fiduciary. She is founder and chairman of PatientRightsAdvocate.org, as well as Power to the Patients. Her focus is on ensuring that all healthcare shows prices up front so that we can have accountability and integrity in billing and at any point of care.

Cynthia has said early and often that transparency protects the ultimate purchasers of healthcare—meaning plan sponsors, plan members, and patients—from overcharges, spread pricing, or otherwise. Where there’s mystery, there is margin, as Anthony Ciaccia has said often.

Cynthia’s call to action is as follows, but listen to the show to hear her say it more eloquently. C-suites, CFOs, in-house counsel use purchasing discipline that your company probably uses elsewhere in the procurement of health benefits. 

Cynthia Fisher also says as part of the call to action, refuse to sign blank checks to the healthcare industry and refuse anti-audit provisions.

She also has a call to action for the accounting industry to stop ignoring auditing the health plans. And this matters just given the bald-faced fact right now that overcharges are party sized.

Let me wrap up with this: There’s a lot of brute force tactics out there being deployed by some plan sponsors that effectively keep plan members from getting the care they need because they are functionally uninsured. I’ve done multiple shows on this, and I link to some of them below. I just can’t help to think, some of this brute force, you know, high-deductible health plans and some pretty savage cost containment strategies, might be unnecessary if middleman excess profits were eliminated.

Well, I say this with some evidence, actually. Andreas Mang (EP419) was on the pod. He talked about saving 15% or more by being smart about contracts and plan assets at the financial and purchasing level. Brian Uhlig … was talking to him the other day. He was telling me he saved $80 million just doing contracts right.

Also Claire Brockbank (EP453) talks about this; Cora Opsahl (EP452), too, from 32BJ. Those are two recent shows, again, about how much money can be saved by only signing contracts that ensure transparency.

Also mentioned in this episode are Patient Rights Advocate, Chris Deacon, Justin Leader, Dan Ross, Forrest Xiao, Anthony Ciaccia, Andreas Mang, Brian Uhlig, Claire Brockbank, Cora Opsahl, Mark Cuban, and Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company. 

You can learn more at PatientRightsAdvocate.org. 

Cynthia A. Fisher is founder and chairman of PatientRightsAdvocate.org, a nonprofit organization seeking healthcare price transparency, giving power to American consumers—patients, employers, and unions—to lower their costs of care and coverage through a functional marketplace and choice.

Cynthia is best known for her pioneering work as founder and CEO of ViaCord, Inc., a leading price-transparent umbilical cord blood stem cell banking company which she started in 1993. In 2000, she co-founded and was president of the cellular medicines company ViaCell, Inc., of which ViaCord became a division. ViaCell went public in 2005, was acquired by PerkinElmer, and exists today under the ViaCord brand.

Cynthia also serves on the public company boards of the Boston Beer Company, Inc. and Easterly Government Properties, Inc. She serves on the Florida Council of 100 and the board of the National Park Foundation, and she previously served on the board of directors of Water.org.

Cynthia holds an MBA from Harvard Business School and a bachelor’s and honorary Doctorate of Science degree from Ursinus College.

09:03 What is the goal of PatientRightsAdvocate.org?

10:28 Is American competitiveness being affected by healthcare spend?

13:47 Why is transparency a root cause to healthcare costs?

15:11 What’s going on across the country to empower transparency in healthcare?

19:31 “I think people are fed up.”

21:22 The Cigna lawsuit in California.

26:36 How do employers navigate contracts against anti-steering?

28:54 EP419 with Andreas Mang.

29:33 EP452 with Cora Opsahl and EP453 with Claire Brockbank.

29:45 EP433 with Justin Leader.

Recent past interviews:

Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode!

Stacey Richter (INBW40), Mark Cuban and Ferrin Williams (Encore! EP418), Rob Andrews (Encore! EP415), Brian Reid, Dr Beau Raymond, Brendan Keeler, Claire Brockbank, Cora Opsahl, Dan Nardi, Dr Spencer Dorn (EP451)