Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA: You got to start kinda nudging the giant. And I think from the physician standpoint, that is … the simplest thing is just educate yourself, understand what's going on, take an interest in it, and that's how you start. And then you go from there. And not everybody, you know, needs to go to DC and lobby, and not everybody needs to get an MBA and try to, you know, become an MD MBA administrator.
But I think just educating yourself on what's going on around you is the first step. And, you know, sharing podcasts like Relentless Health Value or, you know, keeping your ear to the ground is the first step. Knowledge is power.
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Stacey: Waking up the sleeping giant that is physicians. That is what I talk about today with Dr. Ben Schwartz. And look, just like employers who have been called the sleeping giant of healthcare for years, this term is both flattering (the giant part) and a lot or maybe a little offensive (the sleeping part). So, you're welcome and very sorry in equal parts.
Now, this conversation began with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA, in episode 523, who wrote an article in NEJM directed at physicians. He wrote this article with his co-author, Zirui Song, MD, PhD, about the sleeping giant that is self-insured employers and imploring them to please wake up and take back the power and agency that paying for healthcare for something like 60% of Americans really should afford them.
The thing is, though, about employers being a sleeping giant, is that it's hard to take back power and agency. There's three Relentless Health Value episodes with Lauren Vela (EP406), Lee Lewis (EP508), and Elizabeth Mitchell (EP491) about the why it's hard for both internal inside the employer reasons, and then also external ecosystem market reasons why it is very hard to wake up. It's challenging for employers.
But in this latest episode (EP523) with Dr. Suhas Gondi, I kinda turn the tables on him and say, "Well, if employers are sleeping giants, why not physicians? Why can't physicians also be sleeping giants who can take back their power and agency and go about the fixing of the American healthcare system?"
So, do go back when you have a sec and listen to that opening salvo, that shot across the bow, if you will.
But I wanted to jump in deeper on this topic, so I shanghaied (successfully) Dr. Ben Schwartz, who I was justifiably confident would be able to take this conversation one layer deeper. Because look, doctors—all clinicians really, but let's just focus on physicians today—there are many who are suffering in the current regime.
But while I hear the rants and about the burnout and some pretty horrible stories, I don't see much flat-out revolting or coup d'états, at least at the big-picture level, with the probable one exception of clinicians/physicians who listen to this show, who I would not discount at any level. It seems like for every physician picking up a torch, there are, like, a thousand others who don't seem to be.
Dr. Ben Schwartz and I first talk about all of the reasons why it is actually pretty tough for many docs to grab the reins and gallop off in a different direction. Then we list a bunch of directional ways forward despite the obstacles.
Dr. Ben Schwartz, my guest today, as I have mentioned multiple times already, is an orthopedic surgeon who is currently seeing patients in the office a couple of days a week at a safety net system.
He also works as a medical director at an MSK (musculoskeletal) company. And lastly, do not delay checking out his Substack, The Surgeon's Record, and his posts on LinkedIn, which are frequently very great.
With that, here we go. Here is my conversation with Dr. Ben Schwartz. This is Relentless Health Value.
Thank you so very much to our series sponsor this year, Payerset. Also, thank you so much to Patient Rights Advocate, who gave us a lovely financial donation that is so helpful to keep this show on the air. Also, lastly, thank you so much to our founding sponsor, Aventria Health Group.
Also mentioned in this episode are Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA; Zirui Song, MD, PhD; Lauren Vela; Lee Lewis; Elizabeth Mitchell; Payerset; Patient Rights Advocate; Aventria Health Group; Yashaswini Singh, PhD; Graham Walker, MD; Rebecca Andrews, MD; Eric Bricker, MD; Christopher Habig; Andrew Tsang; Steve Schutzer, MD; Dean Jargo; Alex Sommers, MD, ABEM, DipABLM; and Astia Health.
For a list of healthcare industry acronyms and terms that may be unfamiliar to you, click here.
You can follow Dr. Schwartz on LinkedIn and read his blog on Substack.
Benjamin J. Schwartz, MD, MBA, is a physician executive and fellowship-trained orthopedic surgeon with nearly two decades of musculoskeletal experience. After 17 years in clinical practice—including success in CMMI's BPCI-A program and numerous leadership roles—he has stepped away from the operating room to build a portfolio career spanning clinical care, healthcare technology, and health policy.
Ben is currently a nonoperative orthopedic physician at Cambridge Health Alliance and medical director at RightMove Health, where he oversees clinical quality for its musculoskeletal triage platform. Through his consulting practice, Good Bones Medical Advisory, he advises health-tech start-ups and provides expert opinions through national eConsult platforms. He chairs the Practice Management Committee of the American Association of Hip and Knee Surgeons and serves on the editorial board of the Journal of Arthroplasty.
Ben writes The Surgeon's Record, exploring the intersection of healthcare delivery, business strategy, and physician leadership. He is passionate about reimagining musculoskeletal care through thoughtful integration of technology, operational excellence, and a renewed focus on the doctor-patient relationship.
00:00 Introduction to this episode.
01:20 EP523 with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA.
01:25 New England Journal of Medicine article by Zirui Song, MD, PhD, and Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA.
02:07 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell.
04:55 The conversation with Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA.
05:05 "Waking up" the sleeping giant of physicians.
07:40 The risks to a doctor who speaks up.
09:51 EP474 with Yashaswini Singh, PhD.
10:24 LinkedIn post by Graham Walker, MD.
11:35 How going independent has changed for young doctors.
16:06 EP536 with Rebecca Andrews, MD.
18:08 EP404 with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA.
19:51 EP481 with Dr. Schwartz.
19:34 Bridging the world between physicians and healthcare administration.
21:40 What the next version of independent healthcare looks like.
22:06 EP529 with Eric Bricker, MD.
22:20 LinkedIn post by Christopher Habig.
23:20 What MSOs are and how they play into independent practice.
24:36 EP521 with Andrew Tsang.
25:38 Where ASCs play into independent practice.
26:51 The potential for direct contracting in independent practices.
28:28 EP294 with Steve Schutzer, MD.
30:55 Where collective action might fit into this.
Recent past interviews:
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