HRRP stands for Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program, by the way.
I wanted to encore this episode with Dr. Rishi Wadhera because it’s a great representation of a common root cause reason why quality metrics sometimes don’t end well in real life. This root cause is otherwise known as Goodhart’s Law, and we dig into Goodhart’s law later on in this healthcare podcast.
But the actual and ultimate impact of HRRP is also a pretty good representation of the consequences, what happens, when you create a blunt-force policy that assumes hospitals with very different circumstances are the same.
Before we kick in to the episode, I asked Dr. Wadhera, my guest today as aforementioned, if there’d been any updates regarding HRRP since this show originally aired last year; and he told me that two key pieces have come out this past month in JAMA journals calling out CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) to move on from/retire this policy:
Readmission Reduction as a Hospital Quality Measure: Time to Move on to More Pressing Concerns?
Thanks so much to Dr. Steve Schutzer and also BoneDoc66 for your really nice reviews this past month. So appreciated … thank you so much!
And here is your encore.
Today’s guest is Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. Dr. Wadhera authored a retrospective analysis in the BMJ about the HRRP, which we will talk about in this healthcare podcast. Dr. Wadhera is a cardiologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. He also has a master’s in public policy at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government and also a master’s in public health from the University of Cambridge.
But here’s the larger epiphany that pertains to all value-based care and all quality metrics which Dr. Wadhera brings up in this healthcare podcast and which my nerd heart could not love more: Goodhart’s Law. This law is the root of so very many problems. Goodhart’s Law is this (which I learned from Dr. Wadhera): “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” In other words, when we set a goal, people will try to take a shortcut to the goal, regardless of the consequences. And sometimes the consequences, paradoxically, are to do worse at the goal. Maybe because bean counters and admins and maybe even goal-oriented clinicians themselves will go right to the end goal, inadvertently skipping a whole bunch of (it turns out) rate-critical steps. For example, teaching to the test may not lead to students who deeply understand a subject.
And anyone trying to achieve value-based care success, improve quality, form collaborations, or make sales might want to remember that old proverb, “Sometimes the shortest way home is the long way around.”
You can learn more at Dr. Wadhera’s Harvard Catalyst profile and the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center Web site.
Rishi K. Wadhera, MD, MPP, MPhil, is an assistant professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, a cardiologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC), and the associate program director of the cardiovascular medicine fellowship at BIDMC. He is also health policy and equity researcher at the Richard A. and Susan F. Smith Center for Outcomes Research in Cardiology.
Dr. Wadhera received his MD from the Mayo Clinic School of Medicine as well as an MPhil in public health as a Gates Cambridge Scholar from the University of Cambridge. He completed his internal medicine residency and cardiovascular medicine fellowship at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. During this time, he also received a master’s in public policy (MPP) at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, with a focus on health policy.
Dr. Wadhera’s research spans questions related to healthcare access, quality, and disparities, as well as understanding how local, state, and national policy initiatives impact care delivery, health equity, and outcomes. Dr. Wadhera has published more than 80 articles to date, and he receives research support from the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI) and the National Institutes of Health (NIH)
03:30 What was the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program intended to do?
05:22 Why did the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid (CMS) think some readmissions were preventable?
06:02 “The spirit of the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program was to incentivize hospitals to improve … discharge planning, transitions of care, and post-discharge follow-up and care.”
06:58 How has research in the last few years changed the thoughts on the effectiveness of the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program?
08:16 “The 30-day readmission measure—it’s an incomplete measure.”
11:48 “I think patients … are smart, and they know what’s going on.”
13:34 “What’s happening is, we’re just increasing the number of times they need to come back to the ER within that 30-day period.”
13:55 “The weird thing about the HRRP is that when it evaluates hospitals’ 30-day readmission rates, it’s a yes-no phenomenon.”
15:03 “What CMS does is, it risk adjusts … and that is what we should be doing.”
18:30 “This program has been incredibly regressive.”
19:04 “Poverty, neighborhood disadvantage, housing instability—these factors are out of hospitals’ control.”
21:50 “Blunt policies like this that are rolled out nationally probably elicit mixed behavioral responses.”
22:06 “It just makes no sense to take resources away from hospitals.”
22:32 EP295 with Rebecca Etz, PhD, of The Larry A. Green Center.
23:47 What’s the way to improve quality of care globally?
25:37 “CMS’s approach to improving quality of care has really anchored … [that] to payment.”
26:08 “It’s time for us to rethink what our approach to quality improvement should be.”
29:22 “Policy makers have an obligation to rigorously test the impact of these types of policies before they roll them out nationally.”
31:41 Can you scale healthcare nationally?
You can learn more at Dr. Wadhera’s Harvard Catalyst profile and the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center Web site.
@rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
What was the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program intended to do? @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
Why did CMS think some readmissions were preventable? @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“The spirit of the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program was to incentivize hospitals to improve … discharge planning, transitions of care, and post-discharge follow-up and care.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
How has research in the last few years changed the thoughts on the effectiveness of the Hospital Readmissions Reduction Program? @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“The 30-day readmission measure—it’s an incomplete measure.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“What CMS does is, it risk adjusts … and that is what we should be doing.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“Blunt policies like this that are rolled out nationally probably elicit mixed behavioral responses.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“It just makes no sense to take resources away from hospitals.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
What’s the way to improve quality of care globally? @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
“It’s time for us to rethink what our approach to quality improvement should be.” @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
Can you scale healthcare nationally? @rkwadhera of @BIDMChealth discusses #HRRP on our #healthcarepodcast. #healthcare #podcast #digitalhealth #vbc #hospitalreadmission
Recent past interviews:
Click a guest’s name for their latest RHV episode!
Ge Bai (Encore! EP356), Dave Dierk and Stacey Richter (INBW37), Merrill Goozner, Betsy Seals (EP387), Stacey Richter (INBW36), Dr Eric Bricker (Encore! EP351), Al Lewis, Dan Mendelson, Wendell Potter, Nick Stefanizzi, Brian Klepper (Encore! EP335), Dr Aaron Mitchell (EP382), Karen Root, Mark Miller, AJ Loiacono, Josh LaRosa, Stacey Richter (INBW35), Rebecca Etz (Encore! EP295), Olivia Webb (Encore! EP337), Mike Baldzicki, Lisa Bari, Betsy Seals (EP375), Dave Chase, Cora Opsahl (EP373), Cora Opsahl (EP372), Dr Mark Fendrick (Encore! EP308), Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu (EP371), Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu (EP370)
Related Episodes
EP398: Why Is the Commercial Payer Marketplace in California Completely Boring? With Jacob Asher, MD
Yeah, so while the commercial payer marketplace is completely boring, the reasons it’s boring are not. Let me walk you through this conversation I have in this healthcare podcast with Jacob Asher, MD. First, we establish that the relative number of each carrier’s commercial members in California do...
EP394: Spoiler Alert: It Is Counterintuitive Which Hospitals Offer the Most Charity Care, With Vikas Saini, MD, and Judith Garber, MPP
You would think that hospitals with the most money would offer the most charity care—trickle down and all of that. If my health system is big and I have lots of money and profitable commercial patients, I can stuff more dollar bills into the charitable donation balance sheet bucket, right? ...
EP390: What Legislators Need to Know About Hospital Prices, With Gloria Sachdev, PharmD, and Chris Skisak, PhD
If you go to the Sage Transparency dashboard Web site , you get a really graphical representation of the prices that any given hospital actually needs to charge so that they break even. You can see precisely which hospitals are operating on thin margins and which ones are not. You might be thinki...