You can listen to the episode here.
Introduction
[00:00:02] Stacey Richter: Encore episode. "A Driver of Patient Engagement and Clinician Team Success That Is Almost Always Overlooked". Today, I speak with Jerry Durham.
American Health Care Entrepreneurs and Executives You Want To Know Talking. Relentlessly Seeking Value.
[00:00:31] Stacey Richter: This show has implications for provider organizations of all stripes. Especially those looking to succeed in value based care, or those who need patient trust and relationships for any other reason, including just patient volume.
This episode also is for provider organizations who are trying to prevent clinician burnout better. It's also for practices trying to get themselves into narrow networks where patient satisfaction is surveyed at some point in the process. And this includes centers of excellence networks. You know what the right critical is that I talk about on the show today with Jerry Durham that rarely, if ever, gets talked about in any of these contexts?
It's not some fancy data artificial intelligence thing or something else the doctor needs to be clicking on or nurses need to step up and handle. Nope.
The Importance of Front Desk in Healthcare
[00:01:23] Stacey Richter: I'm talking about the front desk. What an overlooked secret to success or a clinician and clinical failure point. Consider that what goes on, on or about the front desk is either going to set up the doctor or other provider for success or make it really, really hard for them.
This is what I talk about today with Jerry Durham in this encore episode from a couple of years ago that is still so incredibly relevant. Because the insights that Jerry shares are so often overlooked, and they impact both patients, but also doctors and other clinicians in ways we don't often think about.
But in this era of staff shortages and burnout, I'd suggest maybe we should. Here's something I never really understood, how physicians and nurses, more often than not, get to be responsible for the entire patient journey, including, start to finish, patient satisfaction.
The Impact of Front Desk on Patient Satisfaction
[00:02:18] Stacey Richter: But if you just take one look at any random, poorly rated physician's reviews, they're usually littered with complaints about the front desk in the practice.
Negative reviews, of course, are not limited to front desk diatribes, but there's often a lot of front desk commentary in them. It has always seemed to me to be a common and strange phenomenon in healthcare provider practices, where the front desk is like a totally separate little fiefdom with a different mission statement and goals from the healthcare providers in the same exact office.
Isn't that odd when you think about it? I mean, first, the front desk is literally, physically separated from everybody else. No matter which direction you approach from, there's at a minimum a half wall barrier surrounding them. Sometimes, in directions most likely to receive an attack, I suppose, there's been added a big glass barrier.
Liliana Petrova pointed this out in episode 236 of the Relentless Health Value podcast, and I, it was really the first time that I had thought about it at all, and also thought about the implicit message this sends not only to patients, but also to clinicians. That whole physicality of the setup, it just screams, we over here have nothing to do with the mission or vision of anyone else in this place.
We have our own thing going on over here, and to do it, we need to be protected from you all and all of your chicanery and untoward goings on, you doctors and nurses and patients. So I was really inspired the first time I heard Jerry Durham from the client experience company talking.
The Role of Front Desk in Patient Life Cycle
[00:03:58] Stacey Richter: His message, as I understood it was that a practice really on board with helping patients achieve the best patient outcomes and nothing for nothing erode clinician burnout includes the front desk in their thinking. Jerry has said that there's four phases in the patient life cycle, as he calls it, which is sort of a synonym for the patient journey.
He says the first phase is marketing. The second one, number two, is the moment that a patient person engages with the clinic or office. Number three is the provider interactions and then number four is the post course of care. So all of these phases, all four of them, are critical to both patient outcomes and experience.
But also, you know, really it's a business success, so you kind of almost have to do well by doing good. The front desk is mostly responsible for that phase two, what happens when that person/patient engages with your office or clinic. So today, as mentioned, I'm talking with Jerry Durham. He's a former physical therapist and practice owner who has worked with a whole lot of PT practices and also other MSK, musculoskeletal specialties among other clients.
His message transcends the specialty. However, today we get into a lot of aspects in terms of how a front desk can work for or against patient experience and outcomes. One of them is how a front desk can help secure a patient's relationship with a practice without a relationship and trust.
The Importance of Trust in Patient Outcomes
[00:05:29] Stacey Richter: Patient outcomes are meh at best, but you know, a lack of trust is a big hairy factor behind disparities in outcomes amongst different ethnic groups, for example, as one point to ponder.
My name is Stacey Richter. This podcast is sponsored by Aventria Health Group. Jerry Durham, welcome to Relentless Health Value.
[00:05:47] Jerry Durham: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I really appreciate this invite, Stacey.
The Role of Front Desk in Patient Experience
[00:05:51] Stacey Richter: So if we're talking about patient experience and we're talking about the front desk, how big a role does the front desk play and the overall patient experience?
[00:06:04] Jerry Durham: We're going to take a step further back. What I like to address first is what I call the patient life cycle and the patient life cycle is literally the physical interactions, the interactions with you and your potential patient all the way through their time with your company.
So this could be a phone call, this could be emails, this could be your paperwork. This could be your physical waiting room. This could be the conversations they have. So that's the patient life cycle. When we actually understand and map out, and it's not very difficult, it's really not, to map out this patient life cycle, we can then build what we call the patient experience.
The patient experience is this emotional journey. It's the story and the emotions that occur during the patient life cycle.
[00:06:50] Stacey Richter: Do you feel like that patient journey And it's accompanying patient experience begins when the patient first walks, for example, through the door of the clinic. Is that when things start or like, what are roughly the milestones or major steps of this patient life cycle that you tend to focus on?
[00:07:10] Jerry Durham: Yeah, I'll take it one step forward. Before I really figured this stuff out, I didn't think their experience started till the provider greeted them until they were in the provider room. And what I realized was there was this whole world that existed outside of the provider room. So then I started to think about what happens when they arrive.
Wait a minute, what happens before they arrive? The welcome phone call, the appointment reminder. Did we get them their insurance benefit? This patient life cycle, this interaction actually starts even before you know they exist. In my company, in my world, I've broken the patient life cycle down into four phases.
Phase one is actually what I call the attraction or marketing phase. That's when actually the patient life cycle begins. This is an interaction with you, your company, your brand.
Then phase two, which, which I've spent my time, money, and energy in, in learning and helping other people with, is when they first contact your company.
Whether that's an email, a phone call, a walk in, could be a fax referral from a doctor. That begins phase two and that's where that front desk comes into play because typically it is your front desk team members who are following up with this person who is now moved from phase one into phase two of the patient life cycle.
Phase two is where I found we can really leverage the interactions to set our providers up for success.
[00:08:34] Stacey Richter: Let me just frame this. Because obviously we're in a certain time and place in the universe we have had a pandemic. There's a lot of providers that are struggling, especially the procedure oriented providers practice volumes were down precipitously.
So there's a sort of a supply side need to make sure that a patient doesn't for example, call the front desk. I have a bad experience, get thrown into some voicemail that's incomprehensible and just be like, you know what, I'm going to call somebody else who has an online scheduling or whatever.
You know, so losing patience in ways that people may have not even contemplated is important from a provider standpoint. But then also from the patient standpoint there are, it's not like chronic conditions have gone away in the middle of this pandemic. So we have patients who need the care and if it's too frustrating and annoying to get the care, then maybe they don't complete, maybe they don't even begin the course of a therapy that they're supposed to be embarking upon, let alone finish it.
But then also we have the advent of consumerism, and we've got a lot of people at this juncture who are either uninsured, underinsured, they have huge deductibles, these high deductible plans, who now they're starting, you know, the term consumerism, bandied about, has reached new highs. All this stuff is becoming, I'm going to say, hypercritical that you are talking about.
[00:10:06] Jerry Durham: Here's the key to this. This isn't a business solution. This is a patient driven solution.
The Importance of Meeting Patient Expectations
[00:10:13] Jerry Durham: In my formula, in all my work, we derive from patient success. Patient success drives business success in healthcare. What is best for the patient is best for business. We could bring up anything at this point, Stacey, anything, we could be talking about billing, we could talk about scheduling, we could talk about phone lines.
If you're not sitting back and going, okay, what is best for the person we're serving in this, then you are doing it wrong. Every great business on the face of the earth answers business questions related to their client customer. Healthcare does not. Healthcare has been lacking in that immensely, and you don't have to be in healthcare.
All you have to do is be someone who's ever used healthcare. Walk into a doctor's office, the front desk person doesn't look up at you, call a doctor's office, goes to a jumbled phone tree, of which your phone call never gets returned, right? You have back pain, you have diabetes. You have a heart condition, and you're trying to get some help, and you're treated, how?
[00:11:21] Stacey Richter: One of the things that you spend a lot of time working on and thinking about has been folding in the front desk to the practice team. There's a lot of talk in the industry about coordinated care and team based care and everyone, I'm going to say, agrees. Having team based care is a way to produce better patient outcomes.
But I don't know very many people who put the front desk on that team. And when they do, it's more in the, you know, they should do excellent customer service. That's kind of the quote. So is it your thinking to train the front desk in excellent customer service?
[00:12:00] Jerry Durham: I get people inquiring. And calling me and asking me all the time if I can help them train their front desk and customer service.
And I say, yes, I can. If you can answer one question for me, how will we measure success? How will we know my training was successful for your front desk team members? And there's always dead air because no one knows how to measure it. It's another nebulous term. It's like quality. Here's something important.
It's a whole team. So it's the front desk team members.
The Role of Front Desk in Provider Success
[00:12:30] Jerry Durham: It's the provider team members, and it's the back office team members are all part of a team. The way I'm going to drive your front desk into being helping your patients and therefore your business be more successful is I'm going to get all team members, including the front desk team behind one central goal.
So if we're going to get the front desk team members bought in to helping more people get better and having them understand how can we make them believe they're part of a team. And the metric I came up with is completed plans of care. And I can show you and I can show a company how the front desk plays a role in patients getting better.
[00:13:14] Stacey Richter: And that same completed course of therapy, I mean, it would be any course of therapy. Like it wouldn't necessarily have to be some musculoskeletal. Yeah, exactly. Same rules would apply. I mean, it's transferable in that way.
[00:13:25] Jerry Durham: Yeah. Yeah. So I think what's really important there, the takeaway there is that.
Your team members are all driving towards the same goal. A completed plan of care, just in case anybody's getting freaked out. It doesn't mean people get better. If you take care of people and you refer them out, so just know that there's some variability in that. It's not that everybody has to get better to be successful because that's an unachievable goal.
[00:13:49] Stacey Richter: It's basically that the practice has decided that I'm going to put this in not PC terms, like you're done with the patient. Yeah. It's not that you've set up that they should have three more visits and the patient is the one that's deciding they're done with you.
[00:14:04] Jerry Durham: You are correct. You haven't asked me this, but this is for all your listeners.
If you want to measure, if you want a measure of your pain, you say, I don't know what my patient experience is. We don't have it. You have a patient experience, whether you're doing anything with it or not. Here's the number one measure of your patient experience. Drop offs. Go back and look at the number of people that arrived for an evaluation and how many of them disappeared. How many of them called to cancel and not schedule anymore, right? That one sided, I'm finished.
[00:14:36] Stacey Richter: Okay, so we've got a endocrinologist, let's just say, or a PT or a GP or a cardiologist, patients are supposed to see their doctor, even if the completed the course of therapy as you visit once a year, how many patients visit once and then never come back again, how many patients are supposed to be taking their medication on a daily basis and don't, which is a huge number. How does the front desk impact that? If I'm thinking like a doctor, I'm thinking that that's my, that's me.
[00:15:12] Jerry Durham: Ego. So I do come from the provider side. I do get to claim this and I get to claim it openly and not accusing others that, you know, the ego.
Because by the way, all you have to do is walk into any healthcare practice and you immediately know what they understand about their clients, customer, patient's journey when the front desk treats you poorly. Actually, you know, from the moment you call them, let's not lie, the product, the service is the interaction with the provider.
So the question is, and this is where I really led off from, I'm like, we have all this research on therapeutic alliance. We have all this research on managing and setting expectations within the provider's office. Why don't we do this work earlier? So if you take that same research as a provider, and they're going, what the hell can my front desk do?
I show them the therapeutic alliance and the expectations research and say, if I can get expectations managed and set further upstream before they arrive, if I can build more trust before they arrive, then that sets you, Mr., Mrs. provider, up for success.
[00:16:22] Stacey Richter: If the front desk is operating at its optimal level, that actually takes a lot of weight off of the provider.
[00:16:31] Jerry Durham: Correct.
[00:16:32] Stacey Richter: I'm not sure that that is really recognized, that if the front desk is working optimally, the provider has a lot less that they need to do in seven minutes, say. What should a front desk be doing that reduces the burden on the provider in the exam room?
[00:16:50] Jerry Durham: The objective, right? So I mentioned those four phases earlier.
Every phase has objectives and an overarching goal, and they all have owners. Phase two is owned by the front desk team members.
[00:17:04] Stacey Richter: And just to interject, the phase two there is the moment they engage with your clinic office.
[00:17:08] Jerry Durham: Correct. So that's phase two. So whether it's an email, a walk-in, a fax, or you call in to say, I want to get scheduled, that starts phase two.
That is owned by the front desk team members. The three objectives of phase two, number one, is to start to build a relationship that will last throughout their entire, that patient, potential patient's life cycle with your company. So think about this, that life cycle may end at the end of that phone call.
So what was their experience like? That life cycle may keep going on and on and on forever. What was that experience like? Number two is be a problem solver. I love this because in the physical therapy world, every front desk person is told to get everybody scheduled. I'm like, that's not helping anybody in any way, shape, or form.
So be a problem solver. If you're going to be a problem solver, that implies that you need to listen to what someone wants from you, not just needs from you. And the third objective is to set the provider up for success. Let's go to the doctor's office now. Physical therapists have 45 minutes to an hour with a patient.
Doctors, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 8 minutes. So, if I can collect expectations, if I can collect wants, and then I get a desired outcome, aka a goal, whether it's of that visit or of that course of care, if I can get that information to that provider even 5 minutes before the visit, that provider is now better prepared and more prepared and work has been taken off of them to now ask those same exact questions.
Those things I just gave you are the things in research that correlate with outcomes in the physical therapy world. Meeting expectations and alliance are trust built is aligned with outcomes. So if that provider walks in the room and says, well, Jerry, I see here that you're looking to get back to CrossFit and want to get rid of that morning pain.
I'm glad you found us. That person sent across from you going, oh, that's great. You guys communicate. Yeah, we do. And if you have that information, that's going to set the provider up for success. One of the other things about phase two, the more trust that is built before they arrive, the more likely things will go well for them.
So that's how we take the work off the provider. Any clinic we talked about, the endocrine, the GP, anybody could say, look, I want these three things before the patient arrives. And so they can greet their patient. Hi, Jerry. I know you're here, right? They called the schedule for low back pain. Your front desk found out they actually want to get back to CrossFit and get rid of morning pain.
Your provider walks out and says, hello, Jerry. My name's Dr. John Doe. I know you're here to get back to CrossFit and get rid of that morning pain. I'm glad you found us, and I can definitely help you out. Follow me back to the room here. If we could stop them right there and take another outcome measure, I guarantee you they're better.
They're already better.
[00:20:01] Stacey Richter: This is a far cry from how most front desks operate. You know, there was episode 238 with Liliana Petrova. And one of the things that she talked about is, you think about the, just the whole architecture of a waiting room, you know, of a front desk area, which I never thought about, you know, you've got the front desk person who's sitting behind, you've got this big wall with a glass thing.
And so what you're saying now. Is a far cry from that, you know, it's the front desk person who's actually, you know, meeting the patient where they're at, asking them questions like that. I mean, is it a very difficult journey to get those kind of front desk, where they're primarily concerned about snagging insurance information to become a front desk that is actually part of the team that helps the patient get better?
[00:20:51] Jerry Durham: You understand the front desk, and I think probably most of your listeners do too. We've turned the front desk of our healthcare practices into the junk drawer of our businesses. So, we need this paperwork filled out. Well, let's have the front desk give it to them. Oh, we need this other thing done. Oh, the front desk can do that.
We pile all these tasks on to everybody. So you got five people at the front desk. They're all five responsible for the same tasks every day. And what we don't realize is there's actually three roles at the front desk. There's the salesperson, the person who is the first contact, the person who responds to the emails, answers the new patient calls, takes all that stuff, or calls the fax referrals back.
There's the sales portion. So I call them the voice of the company. There is then the face of the company, which someone else or a lot of people might call the customer service person, but I call the face of the company, the retention person. Then we have the back office people. Those are the people managing the insurance stuff, the authorizations.
Everybody's role is equally important. If we understand the life cycle, if we break the front desk up like that, Stacey, we can properly fill each of those roles and be successful in this example, in this world.
[00:22:08] Stacey Richter: It definitely seems like you've got current state where you read a provider's Yelp reviews and I'm going to say 60 percent of them are about the front desk.
[00:22:20] Jerry Durham: Yeah, they are. And billing, right? It's all the things outside of the care. It's front desk and billing, right? All the things that kill the practice.
[00:22:27] Stacey Richter: Based on what you're saying, it's the providers who could effectuate change and bring the front desk into the care team are exactly the ones who are thinking that it's all about them.
It just, it seems like a bit of a strange conclusion to draw if you look at like just 3 Yelp reviews.
[00:22:47] Jerry Durham: It's too easy for a healthcare provider to go out there and start a business with no business knowledge.
The Impact of Front Desk on Provider Burnout
[00:22:53] Stacey Richter: You know, one thing that you've said that I also find intriguing is that having a not optimal front desk actually leads to provider burnout. Do you want to talk about how that causation transpires?
[00:23:06] Jerry Durham: I did not do any of this work, any of this front desk work, any of my patient life cycle, any of the patient experience work, believing I was doing anything more than just helping patients understand, did I call the right place? Am I in the right place? Can they help me? And is this where I want to spend my money?
At the same time that the business could figure out, is this person the right fit for the company? Can they pay whether it's insurance or whatever. Beyond that, I didn't think I'd done anything more until I started getting deeper and deeper into it and realizing that yes, when you manage the front desk properly and give them the work and distribute the work properly, your, not only do your patient metrics change, but your business metrics change.
And if I'm setting the providers up for success and I'm not putting cancels and drop offs and completed plans of care only on the providers and we distribute the work equally as it should be across the team members, then that creates a better culture. And in creating that culture, I have now taken the load off of the provider to be the sole reason and the sole purpose for success or failure.
I started this podcast out by talking, if a patient gets better, the front desk team members have played a role. If they don't get better, I'm going to go back and go, did we have the right person on the schedule? I don't go to my provider and say, you messed this up. First question is, did we have the right patient in front of the provider?
We always want to pretend like, well, yeah, we schedule everybody. I said this earlier. Schedule everybody. And I'm like, whenever I run across anybody who's saying, yeah, our front desk job is to get people scheduled. My first response is, A, you're wasting the time, money and energy of your providers.
And you're wasting the time, money and energy of your patients. If you get everybody scheduled. Part of the work in phase two is for that front desk person. Remember, set the provider up for success. Well, if this person is telling me their expectations are built around getting a lot of hands on care, and this clinic doesn't do hands on care, then it doesn't behoove me nor the business, nor the patient to put this person on the schedule. Yet most clinics will put them on the schedule. They then get in front of the provider who then is going to exit, you know, maybe a little hands on care, but is really exercise driven and movement driven. And the patient drops off after visit too.
Why? Because expectations weren't met. Why? Because your front desk didn't ask them what they expect. But when they drop off, we yell at the provider for not delivering value. That's where that culture, that's where we get that burnout. If all team members are doing their equal share, then it's a better culture and it is not a culture of the provider is successful or the provider failed.
[00:25:57] Stacey Richter: As I have had many conversations about how to build a results oriented or a patient oriented practice, I haven't had anybody extend the conversation to or beyond what the providers are doing in the exam room.
[00:26:14] Jerry Durham: One person did, Liliana did. That's true. So if you're looking for Liliana Petrova, it's 236.
She talks about the airline industry. She talks about that whole podcast. I swear to God, I wish someone would had a video of me because the grin never left my face. She talks about the airline experience. Let's think about this for a second. It fits perfectly. In the logical world, I got on the airplane on time and it got me to where I wanted to be on time.
Who cares about everything else? Well, you tell me who cares about everything else. It carries over to healthcare perfectly. Well, I got to see the expert, right? And let's say the expert saw me on time and got me out on time. But it's that whole experience, Lillian's whole talk. She never once talked about the airplane.
She talked about the check in process, and she talked about the tell in process. And this is a billion dollar industry. We're talking about healthcare. That's a trillion dollar industry. I hate to tell everybody, but whether you want to own it or not, there is no difference with that consumer products and services.
What is the experience like? You know, this is the other thing. If we're going to change healthcare, we have to look at the whole experience. The value thing, this is what's so interesting about value driven care and patients. I love how patient centered care, you know, there's all those other terms, Stacey, but they're always about the frickin provider and the patient.
Yet, how about if someone stood out front, again, and this is what the front desk is doing. They're setting the provider up for success by doing what? By making sure they understand what that person on the other end of the phone wants and what they will value. Because you could have this term center of excellence all you want, but if someone arriving doesn't know what to expect and then gets there and doesn't get what they expect, whether it was the best care on the face of the earth or not, they're not coming back.
So let's move it upstream. And if you want to get paid for value driven care, you better make sure people arriving value how you're going to deliver that care and what you're going to deliver. If you have that aligned, I promise you, we're going to have an easier time in healthcare.
The Importance of Culture Change in Healthcare
[00:28:32] Stacey Richter: The one other kind of sticking point that I could certainly see happen is that I've had conversations with any number of providers, and it's almost like the org chart is two separate stacks.
The front desk person is not reporting to the clinician who's working next to them. There's a whole different org chart. And I've had several conversations with clinicians who felt really impotent to have any impact on what's going on in the front desk. In fact, I was talking to someone who worked at a front desk and this was her term, she called it a fiefdom, you know, where there was this one individual who had been there for 30 years, who kind of ruled the roost and who created, who was more interested in maintaining a base of power than potentially dealing with the annoying patients on the other side of the glass wall.
And the clinicians are sort of powerless to necessarily do anything about it. Have you encountered that? And how do you realistically start to effectuate this culture change, which is obviously necessary here?
[00:29:37] Jerry Durham: Yeah, I've had multiple discussions around this. Definitely. You know, I mentioned about this misunderstanding of the front desk role, which is number one, right?
Is that it is multiple roles. And then we hire people in and we, this front desk team, is left to their own devices because it's all about the provider's team or the billing team in the back. I've run into clinics, I had someone come to me in a hospital based setting who wanted to do some work and I said, great, let's get the front desk team involved too and we can make this thing work.
And he said, well, they're not part of my team. I said, that's cool. Can we get them involved? And he said, yeah. No, they're off site. And I said, well, can we get the manager involved so we can coordinate all this? He said, I've never met the manager. I've never met any of the front desk people. And, it just, they do all the scheduling and everything.
And I went and I told him flat out. I said, I can't help you. I cannot train your team members. I can't train your providers regarding patient life cycle and patient experience if we can't control what's delivered. Episode 228, I'm looking at my notes, the Cleveland Clinic, that was a great conversation too because they have connected parts that other people can't, or sorry, not can't, haven't, or believe they can't.
I think that's what I wanted to say. And so listening to that episode. I think it's good for a lot of people to understand that this is realistic. The Cleveland Clinic, they're constantly going back to who? The providers? Nope. They're constantly surveying the patients. That really came out of that podcast and that's what I really enjoyed.
They're not going to the employees and saying, how are you doing? They're going to the consumer, the user of the product, of the service and saying, how was that experience?
[00:31:21] Stacey Richter: I'd say two things, and one of them is going back to the consumer, the patient, and asking how they're doing actually does have a large impact on providers.
Because if the, it's like Stephen Covey's "The Four Boxes", right? It's like you can spend all day, unless you do proactive things that are not urgent. If you don't spend time doing that box of activity, then what you wind up doing is spending all day playing whack a mole, dealing with fire drills, ie, patients that are pissed off. I could actually see that if you improve the experience of patients and now you have happy appropriate patients, that provider experience and clinician experience and physicians who are looking to do the right thing, which most of them are, that experience also goes up because now you're spending your day actually doing good things as opposed to, you know, yet another person who's furious because he had to wait for two hours in the waiting room and was treated poorly and felt disrespected.
That all being said, I think that the original question that I asked was about what do you do in a setting where you've got the two different organizational lines and there's been a lot of people on this show, you know, hospital executives, for example, who have repeated. Repeatedly, that how you have to deal with these things is that you have to keep going up the organizational ladder until you find you get to the place where those two org chart lines meet.
Maybe that's in the C-suite. Maybe it's in the decision suite, like the D-suite one level down from that, but culture change cannot happen unless it is driven by somebody who's way up in the executive suite. So I think some of the things that we're talking about here really do require senior leadership buy in and sponsorship and oversight.
[00:33:16] Jerry Durham: Completely agree. My goal is always to have someone from the highest level involved. So like you just said, who is in the room when the decisions are being made? And again, for all this, we'd go one step further and the patient feedback. Having the user, the consumer, the actual potential patient or patient in the room with you for some of these decisions is going to be key before we even start training with the team.
We have to have some of the champions in the room to talk this stuff out.
Conclusion and Contact Information
[00:33:45] Stacey Richter: And if anyone is interested in learning more about the work that you do at the Client Experience Company, where can they get ahold of you, Jerry?
[00:33:52] Jerry Durham: The best thing to do is email me jerry@jerrydurhampt.com. You can also go to clientexperiencecompany.com, the website.
[00:34:04] Stacey Richter: Jerry Durham, thank you so much for being on Relentless Health Value today.
[00:34:06] Jerry Durham: Thanks for doing this. Thanks for doing this podcast.
[00:34:09] Stacey Richter: Links to everything discussed on the program today can be found at relentlesshealthvalue.com. If you visit the website, relentlesshealthvalue.com, another cool feature is, you know, you can subscribe to the show so that every week the episode is automatically sent to you so you don't have to remember to go to the website to download it.
Thanks so much for listening.